Such Small Ale

Very excitingly, Key doesn't just look back, but it takes us bang up
To date with your songwriting as you've included two brand new songs

Hurrah

The first of which is "Such Small Ale". Tell us about this one

So the way that, um, I like to write, I-I like to write on my own

The parts that I do, I like to write on my own. And, and what has
Worked very well is for me to have a, a track sent over to me. That's
How I did it with Guy and it's how I more often than not work with

Shaun, where he'll send me over a track or a collection of tracks
And, and I'll respond to them. Uh, sometimes they have no top line
Melodic information and other times they do. Um, "Such Small Ale"

Is a time where it, it did come with, um, melodic information. A-and
So what happens when, when I write is I tend to not listen to
Anything, uh, until, uh, I'm in, I've set myself into record so that

I can really respond, so I can respond in an improvised manner where
I don't really know where the, the chord is gonna change or what's
Gonna happen next. When there's a melody on that, there's, there's
That's, uh, slightly different because what will happen then is I'll
Be like sitting in with it and then writing my phrases to it, you
Know, to whatever the day suggests. What was, uh, fun about this
Uh, song is that Shaun had, had sent me over some and I had some
From years back, uh, and I'm terrible at, at cataloguing anything
So I'm never quite sure what comes from what. But this came from
One batch that Shaun had written with, uh, Richard Oakes and he

Thought, they thought this would be the last track that I would
Choose because they tell me there's a, there's kind of like

Strange timing changes in there for me. But for me, I, I didn't
Kind of really hear that because it all sounds very logical. I
I really kind of think in terms of grids, I think in terms of
Fractions and all the fractions added up to a whole, so I didn't
Notice that. But, but I, I guess we should then go back to Shaun
Because it was him and Richard that
That, um, started this process off

Well, Richard and I, I mean Richard is the guitarist in the rock band
Suede so he's had like a long career. Um, but he had a, Suede went on
Hiatus in the mid-2000s and then I met up with him and we started
Writing together. So we've got a writing relationship with our

Project Art Magic that goes back like fifteen years now. We've made
A couple of records, they're on Bandcamp, please buy them, they're
Great. Um, and I really wanted to bring him into this world and part
Of the thing with Key as well was that I knew I didn't want to have
A whole album of just me and Alison. I think it was really important
To have other voices, musical voices on there. So I wanted to be able
To bring other people in and so Richard's playing on I think six

Songs on the record. But I also wanted to see about getting him
Involved with the writing process. So him and I spent a week, um
And each day for five days we wrote a different song idea. The
Same way that we do for ourselves where we would write basically
An A section and a B section. So you don't try and write like a
Fully structured thing, but it's like an A section and a B section
And I would try and come up with a melody for each one once we'd

Got the music kind of happening. And like Alison says, we thought
This would be the one that she wouldn't go for because it has this
Unusual 6/4 into 4/4 time change thing. Um, but you took it and
Ran with it and what was really interesting was when Alison came
Back to my studio with the demo of her lyrics, you played it to me

And I was kind of like, "This is so close to greatness, but we
Haven't quite got the structure right." And I remember you saying
Afterwards you were like a little
Bit crestfallen 'cause you felt like

Well I think what you, because we hadn't, we hadn't done too much of
That, I think, well you looked a bit appalled to start with. You

Looked a bit appalled and that's because I had kind of like
Messed around and pulled the melody around a bit and then when
It came in for that last verse I'd kind of gone off somewhere
And I think sometimes that you do get these sacred cows, you know
You do get very locked into something, you know, and I'm, I'm
Exactly the same, you know. When I've, I hear something one way

I find it very difficult when someone changes some of the edges
To it. So yeah, I, I think initially he was like, because this
Was one of his favorites, you know, something I think he managed
You imagined then going on and working with, uh, for your band

Yeah, yeah

Uh, so it, they, they didn't kind of expect that. So I think, no
For me what it was is, and what I'm kind of quite used to is the
Fact that we'd come in with rough edges knowing perfectly well
That we would all need kind of pulling around, you know, you know
'Cause I'm not, I'm not an engineer so it's not like I particularly
Had the, the wherewithal to be able to do those kind of edits at
Home which I later on learnt to do and I thought I'd better learn

But that was the great thing was, you know, and later on we'll come
Back to that, is that you did get your, your chops up on Logic to
Be able to start doing that kind of editing. But the wonderful
Thing with "Such Small Ale" is the two of us really went toe to toe

Yeah, yeah

Sitting there in my studio

Yeah

Sorting out the structure

Yeah, yeah

And when it came, you know, you do the lyrics all on your own
That's your domain, but you would offer up alternatives

Yeah

And I would have suggestions about where certain stresses
Should fall and certain things and how we should

Yeah

And so it took a while, it feels like
It took a while, it probably took a day

Yeah

Of us going back and forth to getting it just so. But it was one
Of those things that once we had that structure it sort of locked
Into place beautifully and it suddenly felt like a real song

Yeah. It's like we, well it's like we had kind of moments in
There where, where I know that you had that feeling of it's like
We're gonna have to let kind of one of these moments go or we're
Gonna have to let one of them go and I was like, "No, I won't
Let that moment go. I'm gonna find a way of getting in there"

Would that be a lyric, would that be one of your lyrics?

Well it was, it was, no, not so, well there were, there were a couple
Of places with lyrics because I, I understood how they would sing
But he's getting a very rough version of me that's, you know, that

I suppose I got used to with Guy that he could get very used to me
Going and he'd kind of know. Whereas for you who are much, you know
Who is very, very on point and very detailed would have read that
Very much as a kind of a straight, "This is exactly how I do it,"
You know, as opposed to the fact that I was really just rubbish at
Editing at home. No, there were just a couple of moments in there
That, that I, I did kind of really
Like and I was determined to kind of

Get them in there
And it was a case of then Sean said that
Where I had to pick up my chops
Where I had to kind of

You know, learn how to do a bit of editing at home
And say look, that's kind of where I see it going

Although of course, you know
I messed up the whole thing about trying to do it on the beat
So I'm sort of like trying to do it by cutting
You know, as opposed to knowing what those geezers know
And they can sort of like just set up the timing

So it was all a bit rough
But Sean's quite used to that now

But it worked and that's all that matters
You know, you were able to use the tools
To demonstrate the thing you needed to do
And once we knew that it was plain sailing
And then when I listen to that song now
I just, I don't hear any of that
You know, debating and going back and forth
I just hear the flow of it as a
Just, I mean I think it's a great song

Yeah, I'm really proud of it
I think it just, I think it has everything
You know, for me that song's got everything
And um, yeah, it was a great moment

And I suppose I say, you know
Right at the beginning when I first did that bit
Even though it was in that rough form
The reason why I was like that is 'cause I thought
"You're gonna love this, it's great"
And like I say, I can see why you would have been a bit like
"Oh Jesus, funny edges there"

But you know, it's like I could see it
Do you know what I mean?
It's like I could really see where it was going
And then it was, then like Sean said
Then when we sat down and put the jigsaw together more carefully

That sort of showed itself, didn't it?

I mean that visual thing is wonderful
I mean I've lost count of like
I don't do writing sessions with like

Sort of A, another up and coming young pop person anymore
A, 'cause I'm Methuselah now

And I don't really care about modern pop music
But also because I had quite a long period of doing that sort of work
And getting nowhere with it
And also having a series of like
Unprepared young people with nothing to say
Coming through the door effectively
Expecting you to write the song for them

It's interesting because on the 40 Moy Moments podcast
Alison's spoken about writing with Dan Hartman
And realising at that point
And with no offence to him
It just that style wasn't him

Yeah, and it wasn't him
It was a different world
It was a kind of like that sitting down

That sitting down and doing a job
Which is not what I'm about
And it's not what Sean's about

Which is again why it works for us
Because it's not a case of a producer kind of coming in and saying
"This is my set of weeks and I'm gonna work during that time"
And then, you know, and then it doesn't really matter to me
And I've had that before, you know

He's as equally invested in it
Because he cares for his own reputation too
He's not, you know, he's not there for a payday
Although it's not like none of us don't want a payday
But that's not your raison d'être, is it, you know?

No, we should just mention on this song as well
That unlike a lot of the other songs on here
There are synthesisers on it
But it is actually driven by more of a band sound
So it's David Ballard on drums, me on bass
And Richard Oakes on guitar
Now we didn't do it as a band in the studio
But I think you feel like it could have been

And that's so very flipping typical of us
Because I'm going in there thinking
We're gonna get an album together that's gonna suit our live line-up
And then, you know, and then we go off down the houses somewhere else
Which is kind of

Kind of like When I Was Your Girl in the minutes
It's like the lead single
And it's completely different from
The style from the rest of the album

But that's kind of what it is
Because it's like that, you know
I've said to you before about that whole thing that I find annoying
About what kind of record are you gonna make
And it's like I respond to the day
You know, and you bring things in as
Are appropriate for that particular song
So you know, there I would have started off thinking
I know the kind of record I'm gonna make
And then we go off round the houses

But that illustrates exactly how I've come to be where I'm at
Where I confuse people no end

In our 40 Moy Moments series
We've discussed some songs are a bit of a bugger to sing
Such Smile sounds like it might be one of those

Well I think it was gonna be
I mean I did, you know
I did struggle with that one more in the studio maybe than some others
But that's very much from what I said
To you before about the muscle memory

That was one of the songs that we wrote and went straight in to record

So there was no, yeah

I was concentrating
Concentrating on my timing
Concentrating to remember my lyrics
You know, that kind of business
Although it's quite interesting
'Cause when we ended up doing it for the Radio 2 Piano Room

I thought what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna
Take myself off into a rehearsal studio
And just sing it, get it into my body, you know
And so where I was worried that it was gonna be problematic
It actually turned out not to be, didn't it?

No, it was great
I mean the Piano Room thing was just such a worry for me
Because it was so many moving parts

Of, you know, working with the arranger
Who was sending me beautifully realised arrangements
But with like the worst possible orchestral samples you can imagine
And having a band that I wasn't gonna get to work with
A backing singer we wouldn't meet until the day
Having Richard coming in to play as well
But at no point until we were all in the very expensive Piano Room
Where time is money
Not getting to all do it together until that moment
So when it all came off

It was such a relief
And it sounded so great
It sounded so great

I was really blown away with it

Like you say, it's such a relief
And you know, there's something about doing

You know, because it was a pre-record
About doing live live
Like when I sing live live on telly
My brain just goes into overdrive
With this panic of, you know
I just get this like intrusive thinking
"You're gonna forget it, yeah, you're gonna sing it bad
Yeah, you're gonna forget the words
Yeah, you're gonna forget the time
No, you're gonna lose concentration"

All that stuff happens
Which ends up making it really torturous
So the very fact that I knew that if I needed to do it again

That I could do it again
That in itself means you don't really have to do it again, you know
And the fact that, you know
With the Piano Room there was no fixing it up
The take is the take
So it's not like we could go in there and fix a line or something
If I went kind of astray
So the fact that it was the first time
We'd ever done it together live ever

Yeah, it was just delightful

And then Radio 2 put it on the playlist as well
It's just like amazing
Absolutely amazing
Four weeks on the playlist

Yeah, I didn't see that coming
Yeah, I was really happy about that